00:00:03: As we simplify rules and speed up permitting, We must also accelerate the uptake of clean products in Europe.

00:00:10: And

00:00:10: public procurement

00:00:12: is

00:00:12: a powerful lever.

00:00:14: It amounts to fourteen percent Of our GDP.

00:00:17: But too often we see that Our public buyers have to take The subsidized foreign product Instead of high quality European alternatives.

00:00:27: That's homegrown

00:00:29: value that we are leaving on the table.

00:00:31: This will be a central focus of the Industrial Accelerator

00:00:35: Act.

00:00:44: About the challenges of European industry and what you would really help, this is about the success of the Iutogo Podcast, the podcast for Europe politics at the Schachtelau Center in Berlin.

00:01:17: And today we are very happy to have our senior policy fellow Philipp Jigerm studio!

00:01:21: Hello Philipp!

00:01:22: I think so too.

00:01:25: Philipp, before we get into the question of how to make the European industry fit for the future let's take a look at the current situation.

00:01:35: Branches such as auto-industry, chemical industry or machine construction are central for Germany and Europe's economy but at the same time there is always this number of strikes in the media that will be dismantled, breaking down profits both by manufacturers than by suppliers.

00:01:53: How bad is it at the time for the industry in Germany?

00:01:57: In total, the economy of Europe stands under high pressure.

00:02:00: And this applies to the industry and produces a very special product.

00:02:05: And then a few examples at the end of chemistry industry, because capacity emissions last time only around about seventy percent.

00:02:11: That is clearly under what you need to be profitable in the long term.

00:02:15: The production itself also lies ten percent below that level from just a couple years ago.

00:02:19: With car builders, the views are pretty bad and this always happens on media as well with machine builders.

00:02:24: And also the other energy-intensive industries, like steel, glass and paper

00:02:28: etc.,

00:02:29: are not doing well.

00:02:30: Since Corona and the last energy crisis in Russia have not been fully recovered yet.

00:02:36: If you look at the aggregate numbers of Europe now then it doesn't look that bad for some areas or countries.

00:02:42: but if we take a closer look into each industry and country one by one this situation is pretty grave.

00:02:49: Which countries are most affected?

00:02:52: Especially the countries that have a lot of industries.

00:02:55: Germany is an important industrial country for them, and if they are weak in Europe it's especially bad for Germany.

00:03:01: In addition to this situation in Germany also gets worse than in Europe... ...and you can see how many jobs there were lost last year.

00:03:13: In the automobile industry, we have been doing business for about thirteen percent in recent years.

00:03:18: For machine builders it also looks difficult.

00:03:21: Two percent work place loss over five percent production return only last year.

00:03:25: The chemistry industry was producing fifteen percent under the values of two thousand twenty-one.

00:03:32: So in Germany and even in some other countries this is much more grave than in Europe overall.

00:03:38: Can you give us a little context?

00:03:41: What are the central causes for this, especially in Germany.

00:03:44: For example, it looks so bad compared to other EU countries

00:03:48: as well.

00:03:49: As most of course that's not about one thing but there is a number of factors and maybe later when we talk about IAA we can also focus on the sector-specific problems.

00:03:59: But perhaps the three most important issues for the industry are macro-wise.

00:04:06: Europe and especially Germany are very export-oriented.

00:04:10: The whole model doesn't work so well in the world where more wars take place, there's a world that is more polluted... ...and where there're higher thresholds as well.

00:04:19: First of all, second of them are high energy prices which are only relevant for a handful of sectors.

00:04:25: but for example for the steel or chemistry industry it's totally crucial if the price of energy is two times higher than in Australia.

00:04:35: And now, due to the conflict and war in Iran... ...the energy prices have risen again and are not visible until it has developed.

00:04:43: Thirdly, probably the most difficult factor is the so-called second China shock.

00:04:49: That's why China no longer only produces simple goods but also products that used to be Europe and especially Germany at the top of the world.

00:04:58: The cars as well as the machinery construction industry.

00:05:03: And because China has become so strong, they are breaking into a European market.

00:05:07: But also break into the European exporters in third countries like South America for example and then the European producers can no longer supply Chinese markets.

00:05:17: that is more important to the German car manufacturers as an example.

00:05:21: Why is it

00:05:23: that China could get up like this?

00:05:26: Is it only due to the subventions of the Chinese state or did Europe just fall asleep a little bit?

00:05:33: I

00:05:33: think the problem has changed consciously in Europe.

00:05:37: In the past, for a few years, China was always able to produce cheap products but that's all subventionated.

00:05:43: and when it comes to quality, Europe and Germany are still relatively safe there.

00:05:48: And that has changed, and it's been like this for some years now.

00:05:51: China is not only cheap but also qualitatively almost everywhere at eye level.

00:05:56: On the one hand you can see that China has genuine competitive advantages.

00:06:00: So they have a huge market in which you can scale up greatly because of its network effects on Europe.

00:06:05: unfortunately there are no such things.

00:06:06: And China isn't just good at producing but also invests a lot into research and innovation so many of the patents will come from China as well.

00:06:15: The other side of the story is that there's still a massive industrial policy and also over the last two decades.

00:06:24: So, the direct promotion by certain industries has calculated that about four-and-a-half percent are BIPs in China... ...and it's much more than what Europe puts on the table.

00:06:36: But because there was such a long time, the branches and sectors have become so strong that some of them are no longer supported by these subventions.

00:06:47: There will be other factors which became even more relevant in recent years including manipulation of the exchange rate.

00:06:56: The Chinese currency is at least between twenty to forty percent too weak when it comes to exporting to Europe or other countries.

00:07:04: And if you put it all together, this second China shock comes out.

00:07:11: It's really a big challenge for the industry and I'm afraid that we won't be able to reach the end of the driving barrier yet.

00:07:16: ...and there is also a central motivation behind initiatives like the year Now.

00:07:21: you

00:07:22: already call the IAA, the Industrial Accelerator Act on German, an industrial acceleration law.

00:07:29: The proposal of the EU Commission how to help the European industry and one of its goals in this proposal is to increase up to twenty-five percent of the processing plant at BIP of the European Union by twenty-four percent.

00:07:45: What are the specific proposals?

00:07:48: What is the purpose of this law and how should it work to achieve that goal?

00:07:56: Maybe

00:07:56: a little bit about twenty percent.

00:07:58: It's obviously a strange number... I think a marketing department of the Commission has thought about how to bring that into action.

00:08:08: The Commission sometimes does it at the National Industry Act as well, for example.

00:08:10: It's called some kind of absouciate numbers and it is strange because the Industrial Accelerator Act doesn't even consider the instruments or the bandwidth of instruments which could achieve this.

00:08:23: And he shouldn't try that first either.

00:08:25: so there are other reasons why the number itself would be a bit strange... If you imagine that the high-tech industry, the service industry in Europe is growing a lot, then it would be much worse for the industrial sector.

00:08:38: But still we don't want this to affect the growth of the service sector.

00:08:44: So what's in the Industrial Accelerator Act and can break down into three central instruments?

00:08:50: The first step is planning acceleration.

00:08:53: It takes a long time for Europe to build a factory or even set up a windmill.

00:08:56: We need a bureaucratic jungle, and it should be accelerated in the years ahead of us.

00:09:03: For this reason there's little resistance but obviously not so easy to implement.

00:09:07: There will be another boost especially for the energy-intensive industry.

00:09:10: Secondly, and it's getting a little more interesting.

00:09:14: These bi-European or Made in Europe clauses should come together with low-carbon clauses for CO² production.

00:09:22: In fact this means that products will be introduced into the future which are produced in the EU and which have exploded less CO² when producing them themselves.

00:09:32: And because this made in Europe part is about to take place, the IAA was pushed four times.

00:09:38: So it should have come out last year and now at the end of February or early March.

00:09:46: And the third instrument are sharper conditions for foreign investment in Europe, so-called Foreign Direct Investment.

00:09:53: If an foreign company wants to build a factory here from China it is guaranteed that value will be created there.

00:09:59: So employees come out of Europe and I am also being researched by European investors on board etc... ...and the fact that they are primarily aimed at China as well as most of them during the year.

00:10:13: I would like to take a look at the bi-upin requirements that you have mentioned,

00:10:19: i.e.,

00:10:19: these made in Europe clausels.

00:10:21: How should all this work?

00:10:23: And for which products do they include?

00:10:26: those made in europe clausel?

00:10:28: So it's supposed to be for three groups of products and first is clean tech, so wind turbines, solar panels, heat pumps, electrolyzers that need me for hydrogen production and batteries etc.

00:10:42: The second is energy-intensive products and that starts at the beginning with steel, aluminium and cement.

00:10:50: Later we can add more.

00:10:52: And thirdly, the e-mobility, especially electric cars but also hybrids fall below it.

00:10:57: So these are the product categories.

00:10:58: It is currently so predicted that everywhere where public money is in the game, these claws will be attacked.

00:11:07: And especially when it comes to the public delivery of the case... So if a new school or bridge is built like this with subventions such as buying premiums for cars and even if you get a heat pump, there are subventions.

00:11:18: And at Kintec, above all, the auctions.

00:11:21: If a solar park is built then an windpark works mostly over the auctiones.

00:11:27: So if there

00:11:28: is an open supply or a subvention, then you would first produce products that are produced in Europe before they come back to production from third countries.

00:11:38: Exactly!

00:11:38: Then we can talk again about all the restrictions that lie ahead of this.

00:11:44: But when a school is built it should actually be used for a certain degree European and green steel and cement and aluminium.

00:11:50: That sounds very interesting

00:11:51: at first.

00:11:52: At the same time, these clauses are also relatively controversial and won't be seen by everyone so much.

00:12:00: Why not?

00:12:00: It's mainly about the made-in Europe clause.

00:12:03: And they're actually protectionism.

00:12:05: The EU hasn't done that yet until now.

00:12:08: The European Union has always written on the road to being free trade in Bolverg.

00:12:12: In a way it is the DNA of the economic policy of the EU.

00:12:16: So the EU has been driving pretty well for quite some time already And that's why this economic doctrine has a lot of followers, member states and also in some of the commissions.

00:12:27: Especially when it comes to trade directly.

00:12:29: So one reason is simply because there is now a break with the way we have done so far.

00:12:33: And secondly, some member countries are out of their own interests against them... ...and they no longer use the costs positively.

00:12:42: They then have higher costs through these clauses but less industry which could benefit from those.

00:12:48: For example, if you build a new school in Züpern, you have to use European products.

00:12:53: That costs more at first but because there is hardly any steel production in ZÜPERN it helps the German steel makers and not the economy of Zübern.

00:13:01: And because the Made in Europe is so controversial, it's getting worse and worse over time.

00:13:06: So the first draft that got leaked was made in Europe only for European countries – the EU thought about this.

00:13:13: Now it isn't made with Europe anymore but with Europe instead.

00:13:15: That's why not just the EU but all the countries with which Europe has a free trade agreement or they have an agreement on public dealings with the World Trade Organization.

00:13:25: There are many countries where there will be free trade agreements with seventy-six countries.

00:13:29: But from our point of view, it makes sense to have that in hand.

00:13:32: Because the goal shouldn't be to let yourself go against the whole world and no more competition is allowed but primarily to keep the unfair competition out there.

00:13:41: And you should also mention this in context.

00:13:43: There are many countries which have such preference rules.

00:13:47: The USA has made in the U.S.A By the way not only under Trump's but also under Biden.

00:13:53: Canada and China are doing the same thing.

00:13:56: It's not like if Europe were to implement it, there would be a big taboo break in the first

00:14:01: place.".

00:14:01: So that was now made-in-Europe or Made with Europe clause cells?

00:14:05: Now the IAE also has low carbon clause cells inside of them.

00:14:08: And originally the law should also be called Industrial Decarbonization Accelerator Act.

00:14:13: so this whole thing shouldn't only help industry but also climate.

00:14:17: The decarbonisation was written out of the title but the low carbon clauses are still included.

00:14:22: How green is the

00:14:24: whole thing now?

00:14:24: You can already see that the EU has not been so climate-oriented as it was a few years ago.

00:14:29: And you also notice this in the statement of Decarbonization from the title, where one did not want to offer an access area.

00:14:35: but inside the law, the local clauses are still there and they have the same monetary areas come as package deal with the Mates In Europe clauses and then apply for subventions at public spending and auctions but only in the energy-intensive product category, i.e.

00:14:53: steel, aluminum and cement.

00:14:56: And the other products that the IAA includes such as clean tech and e-autos are already a certain part of green transformation and there is no production conditions inside it.

00:15:08: One difficulty with the locust claws however isn't at all so easy to define what actually green is?

00:15:14: What's CO₂-armor steel?

00:15:16: You somehow want to set up an CO₁-swelling value.

00:15:18: But for example steel, there are different types of steel.

00:15:22: There is primary steel and secondary steel that use various kinds of energy to extract CO₂.

00:15:29: That's why this process has been going on since a few years now in order only to understand how to certify green steel.

00:15:37: And actually the IAA should have fixed it but they still couldn't agree with each other yet so we'll talk about that later.

00:15:42: And also with other products, this certification is not much easier.

00:15:49: That's why it's important that you work here clean and fast because if the definitions are there for first three years then maybe the industry will be gone

00:15:57: already.

00:15:57: Let's stay short on the climate.

00:15:58: There is currently a big debate about the CO₂ price and the ETS reform,

00:16:04: i.e.,

00:16:04: the reform of emissions trade in Europe.

00:16:07: Many companies claim that the climate protection of Europe is stronger than other regions with which they stand in competition for its disadvantages.

00:16:16: Can AIA be politically countered by industry and reduce disadvantages

00:16:24: to companies?

00:16:24: Yes, with all the industrial-political debates that are being held right now, ETS is a bit of an elephant in the room.

00:16:29: And especially the energy intensive industry wants to only talk about it.

00:16:33: That's why there is also a real risk that ETS will not just be improved and adapted but will then be taken into account by changes in the core.

00:16:42: This would have very negative effects on the credibility of the whole system... ...and therefore also very difficult disadvantages for climate protection in Europe.

00:16:51: And the idea and concept also works quite well, that you use mass again in the Industrial Accelerator Act as sugar bread.

00:17:02: how the CO₂ price is better available.

00:17:05: And that's a bit of an approach behind IAA, and it will try to bring in many NGOs from there as well.

00:17:13: However you have to say this won't be enough for some companies like the chemistry industry which are not represented by IAA yet need additional support to take pressure on this ETS debate.

00:17:25: So now

00:17:25: work... You in the economic and political team at the Jagd-de-Lost Center are all together from different perspectives, but it is actually a big topic for us here.

00:17:37: What's your or first conclusion?

00:17:40: Can the IAE of industrial Europe really help?

00:17:44: We have

00:17:44: already talked about the great challenges for industry to begin with... And they are so big that it also needs really big political answers.

00:17:53: And just like in the last one or two years, this is probably not enough anymore.

00:17:58: At least conceptually, the IAA has a new path already.

00:18:02: As mentioned before, there were no biopines until now and at least that's a small paradigm change.

00:18:08: But we are afraid that this is a paradigm change which will be specifically implemented.

00:18:14: At least for the first time, it's going to be pretty limited in its effect.

00:18:17: and if you look at individual instruments like FDI-Conditionality for foreign institutions in Europe... ...that only affects very few cases.

00:18:26: Only then when the country from which the investment comes has more than forty percent of global production, what really is just not enough product groups at all.

00:18:37: This is also the case here in China, but it won't be so common to wear them.

00:18:42: In the Made-in-Europe and the Locaben-Clausel there's a bit of an impact on the sector.

00:18:47: And in the energy intensive industry seems to have a rather weak effect... ...and that's because not one hundred percent of products must be green or European, only a small percentage.

00:18:58: For example, when a community is building a school there are only about twenty-five percent of the steel and even five percent of cement is filled with these biopines.

00:19:06: And also just one small part of the entire production goes through public supply or is sold by subventions at all.

00:19:16: If you count it all together often only one to two percent of European productions are touched on from that.

00:19:22: So not a lot.

00:19:23: That's not much at

00:19:25: all!

00:19:26: In the other branches, it is much more.

00:19:29: In clean tech, in batteries, for example, there are such parameters that could already bring something to other sectors less.

00:19:34: So our estimate at the wind industry is especially that it will have at least a little impact next year.

00:19:41: and it's just because the wind parks only need to fill up these made with Europe clausels by forty percent.

00:19:48: But at the moment, it's already about ninety percent of wind turbines are produced in European wind parks.

00:19:54: So that can be a safety threshold down below.

00:19:59: but until you get to the forty-fourth percent from the nineties this will definitely last for another few years.

00:20:03: so there is no boost right now.

00:20:05: If we look at cars then they probably have the most powerful effect.

00:20:08: There are relatively strong conditions and Chinese cars won't be able to receive any more shopping prizes in Europe For example, that could trigger some kind of boom.

00:20:21: And for example, the cars used for service are then also stricter determined what to do with Europe.

00:20:27: In some products it can already support the industry and also attract CO₂-free production.

00:20:34: but our first analysis would be about such a healing agent is of course

00:20:39: not.

00:20:39: And now let's look at the products or industries where the clauses can actually make a difference.

00:20:45: It is not in all areas as you say with energy-intensive industries, rather if we talk about it one to two percent.

00:20:53: But in the industry that really shows effect.

00:20:56: how expensive would this be?

00:20:57: Or does it become for the tax payers inside co₂ poor European product instead of production?

00:21:04: with a high footprint or import products from abroad.

00:21:09: Can you measure that?

00:21:10: Is it very expensive

00:21:12: for all of us?

00:21:13: Exactly, in fact, a country like China can offer the products much cheaper and this is... Currently, for many construction projects or solar parks there is a big advantage that Europe can't take expensive products but the cheap ones from China.

00:21:27: And so this cost-effect doesn't get too large.

00:21:30: due to the IAA, there's also the possibility if the difference lies above twenty five percent or thirty percent at the costs of removing an exhaust valve and then these biopines and the locust valves no longer bind them.

00:21:45: They may still be used, however they don't have to anymore.

00:21:49: And another point of view is how far you can go with European fast.

00:21:52: Which countries fall under it?

00:21:54: If the road leads to the commission, that all free trade partners fall down like India for example then this means... because India can produce some things cheaper, like China too.

00:22:06: The cost difference will not be that big.

00:22:09: but the support for the European industry itself is limited as well and if you summarize it, the restrictions are already so that the effect is limited.

00:22:18: But on the other hand we have to say a year or two ago there was even more or less unthinkable that these made with Europe rules come And therefore relatively speaking what still seems possible politically at times It's a big step forward.

00:22:32: Relatively speaking, what is actually necessary to support the industry isn't enough for far-away people yet.

00:22:37: but that's why you get into such a different perspective because one has to think about political restrictions as well.

00:22:43: Maybe

00:22:45: one last question to the biopic in Clausen, before we continue.

00:22:49: In this area where it is connected what happens if the rules are not applied?

00:22:53: So does the Commission have sanctions mechanisms available for you to say that you should actually apply a biopic clause here but didn't do so at all?

00:23:00: That's

00:23:00: a good question.

00:23:01: I think in the Industrial Accelerator Act it isn't regulated.

00:23:05: I think that would turn the game upside down and rather ask you what happens if such clauses are not fulfilled, because then of course you can think about a contract violation procedure.

00:23:15: But maybe it was shot with guns at spades.

00:23:18: And to be honest in most cases when an public delivery office for example does n't want to use part two biopin or locale.

00:23:26: Then there is this possibility on the one hand to go over the selection clause with the cost differences So we couldn't do so.

00:23:33: You could also say that the competition with green products was not sufficient and then there is another reason why you can't handle it.

00:23:43: Let's take a look at

00:23:45: other measures in the IAA.

00:23:48: They are the measures for planning acceleration, as we have already mentioned before.

00:23:51: We're going to pick up a little bit of the bureaucracy jungle into the EU.

00:23:55: Bureaucratie construction is a high-risk goal at the moment.

00:24:01: Do you think that AI can make a difference here?

00:24:08: Yes, with

00:24:09: the planning acceleration of the IAA it's actually bureaucratic.

00:24:13: Everything should be digitized, food should be shortened and requirements should go down... And if the authority doesn't report on time, it automatically applies to the application.

00:24:24: So that's not new at all and you already know these applications from last year.

00:24:29: but when this is actually implemented, it builds up a lot of bureaucracy which can at least save a lot for companies even though not for authorities as well.

00:24:36: But if you look at the other areas in IAA, you have to give wine and say that there is a lot of bureaucracy built by IAA.

00:24:46: So for foreign investment conditions like FDIs but especially with the made-by-furewrop and locable clauses... thousands of offices in Europe, every community office in Germany.

00:24:58: And if the person is not schooled there, it can be very difficult to follow these new and complicated rules and then do everything quickly and properly won't get so easy because this bureaucratic structure exists.

00:25:12: It's also more important than what has been done until now to think about which sectors you want to have inside and which sector really wants to give a boost Maybe more.

00:25:24: Some products can be imported from China, and then you don't have to pre-order them.

00:25:31: You just do that with the cars for example at Stahl where there is a sense of meaning in order to keep up with the bureaucratic situation.

00:25:38: If we take a closer look

00:25:40: at the sectors, it's mainly about which sectors are not there.

00:25:47: Machines and farmers aren't in that sector.

00:25:49: The high-tech industry isn't in this sector.

00:25:51: Artificial intelligence isn't involved either.

00:25:54: That doesn't seem to be so much of an issue for future generations

00:25:57: right?

00:25:58: Yes!

00:25:58: And also one critical point you often hear is that the affected sectors are obviously not the industries with the highest growth rate.

00:26:04: On the other hand, also those branches that are in there need support because it's not going well right now.

00:26:08: And they're already important for the energy-intensive industry as a basis of the rest of the industry.

00:26:15: For this background, it is meaningful to get the industrial support and the instruments that bring the IAEA into production –

00:26:23: i.e.,

00:26:23: the public supply and the subvention – will also be affected by these products.

00:26:27: at Esten.

00:26:27: The high tech branch doesn't run so much about public supply yet e.g.. But the direction of your point, I would definitely agree that European industrial policy is currently doing a lot for these legacy branches.

00:26:40: The earlier big ones were still large and had influential lobby groups And in total because of this, the industrial policy has become quite backward.

00:26:48: And therefore the high-tech branch should come more to other areas but not necessarily within the framework of the IAA.

00:26:56: If

00:26:56: we look a little further, you say that not everything can be regulated in the framework of the Industrial Accelerator Act.

00:27:02: But there must also be other industrial policy measures on European level.

00:27:10: What are these measures?

00:27:11: Looking beyond the IAEA, what else does it need to strengthen industry, especially those industries which aren't covered by

00:27:19: the IAAE?

00:27:19: Since the problems for the industry are so important, three major issues that should be concentrated in the EU and in industrial politics come out of my view.

00:27:29: The first one is that there's still a lack of IAE at some points.

00:27:32: It can mean that you set up certain parameters where possible to apply time-line again... ...and that the implementation will now get solved quickly and cleanly.

00:27:42: further industrial and political support measures.

00:27:46: For example, it can be subsidies or support for new investments in the industry.

00:27:50: The chemistry industry is not yet involved with the Industrial Accelerator Act but needs help immediately.

00:27:57: And also the just mentioned high-tech projects would fall under it.

00:28:01: In the context of EU budgets, a lot can be brought to an end as well.

00:28:05: The competition is planned in advance for strategic investments and for example clean tech projects could be used there too.

00:28:14: In addition, you could also think that for some industries it is not only limited to public procurement but also the private sector.

00:28:21: This leads into standards and says that the green steel must be used in public buildings instead of in all buildings.

00:28:28: so there would have been a much wider lever.

00:28:31: The third point will be to react to China's shock.

00:28:35: In terms of the manipulated currency, you probably don't get much with very small sector-specific measures.

00:28:43: And a possibility that should be drawn in motion is also an additional cell and one could coordinate with other partners or third countries to make sure that China will be excluded from these third markets in which Europe exports.

00:28:59: At least when China fights against unfair means.

00:29:04: Also a paradigm change in the IAA, which alone is not enough yet.

00:29:08: It still needs more mass to strengthen Europe's industry.

00:29:14: Thank you very much Philip for telling us about the IAE.

00:29:17: or how you explained it in the IAA.

00:29:19: We weren't that consistent with this episode, but before we get to the end of our podcast here are three questions for each category.

00:29:27: I'll ask you three questions and please answer them one by one.

00:29:33: The first question is which word would describe the Indusher Accelerator Act?

00:29:41: We have often said paradigm change, but I don't think it fits me better than to say that.

00:29:47: And now comes the word... paradigm change

00:29:53: is suffering!

00:29:54: The second question is who will most profit from

00:29:58: iA?

00:29:58: Probably the automobile industry.

00:30:01: And last question made in Europe or made with Europe?

00:30:07: With Europe?

00:30:08: Vielen Dank, Philipp.

00:30:09: Dass du heute bei mir im Podcast warst!

00:30:11: An

00:30:12: unsere Zuhörerinnen und Zuhöhrer – das war hiermit die Achtundfünfzigste Folge des EU-TOGO-Podcasts dem Podcast für Europapolitik des Stacklossenters in Berlin.

00:30:21: Und leider auch die letzte Folge mit unserem Produzenten Moritz Hergel, der die letzten vier Jahre, die Folgen für uns geschnitten und produziert und vorbereitet hat.

00:30:30: Und an dieser Stelle ganz vielen lieben Dank, Moritz And I hope that you will at least still hear us if you no longer produce for us.

00:30:39: Of course, there are these episodes just like all the other episodes as always on Spotify and all other popular podcasts to listen to and also on our website deloscenter.eu where you can find an analysis of the IAA through our political team.

00:30:56: My name is Thunirn.

00:30:58: thanks a lot for listening until next time!